Welcome to your online discussion of Their Eyes Were Watching God!
Together with members of your book group, you’ll be reading Their Eyes Were Watching God over the next several weeks. Although you're not required to take notes while you read, it would be wise to keep track of important events and characters for your own clarification. You are, however, expected to participate regularly and thoughtfully in an online discussion of SEVEN essential questions.
Here's how it works:
Divide your book roughly in half. You need to have read and blogged about these halves by the due dates below.
There are two kinds of posts in this discussion: response and comment.
Response = direct response to the essential questions
Comment = comment on someone else’s posted response or comment
- Post at least THREE responses for each half of your book (SIX overall). Try to address to a variety of essential questions over the course of your blogging.
- One of your six responses can be a “free-response" post.
- Post at least THREE comments for each half of your book (SIX overall).
Due dates:
- Post your first set of responses and comments by Thursday, May 16.
- Post your second set of responses and comments by Wednesday, May 29.
Essential Questions:
- Why is it difficult to see our own privilege & prejudice?
- Does everyone experience some form of privilege and prejudice? If so, how?
- How do we overcome the adverse effects of privilege and prejudice?
- In what ways are privilege & prejudice related?
- How do we become prejudiced?
- In what ways does this book refute the notion of the “single story”?
- How does the story (setting, characters, plot, etc.) reflect or illuminate the current state of race / gender relations in our country? Have we made any progress as a society?
** Free-response option: Address another issue/episode/or passage in the book that you find
significant for any reason.
Assessment: To earn maximum credit, post thoughtful responses that are at least a few sentences in length—and carefully proofread! Do not misspell characters' or authors’ names! Also, be sure to include specific references to the text (either details or short quotations). Page numbers, too, are always helpful.
Right from the get go we see a woman challenging single story's. The story that women should wear dresses and not overalls. We hear to comments of people who are surprised but also angry at her audacity to wear 'mens' clothing(2). I thought that this was the prefect way for us to meet Janie. I really felt that I could connect to her even though I hadn't heard her story yet.
ReplyDeleteI think that Janie's wearing of overalls also relates to EQ #7 because she is challenging the gender stereotypes of her time by wearing pants instead of a skirt or dress. In the current era, there is nothing out-of-the-ordinary about girls wearing pants.
DeleteEQ #7
ReplyDeleteI think that Hurston focuses a great deal on gender relations and the role of women as the topic is so pertinent to Janie's story. As she grows up, she has to find her place in life after being guided for a short amount of time by her grandmama and even the memory of her mother. In conversations with her grandmama (p. 13 and a great deal of chapter 2, and p. 23), they explore marriage and what is expected of the relationship. In their situation, the practical concept of marriage was seen as a materialistic practice, with a focus on the profit you acquire and the mere safety of the arrangement. They were forced to think this way because of the dangers that being unmarried posed; again, the reminder of Janie's mother's rape and grandmama's impregnation speaks to these. As a society, these dangers still exist, but in a much lesser degree. I think that the current perception of marriage is completely different than in the story, but the fear and the completely human process of growing up and finding a place in the world is still extremely relevant and voiced so eloquently in this novel.
I can only think that her grandmother message of the necessity of marriage stuck with her. Janie has been continuously married since 16. This highlights the steps our society has taken over the past years to empower women; making it possible for a women to make it on her own.
DeleteIt is also depressing to think that there was I time where it was seen as more 'safe' to marry off you 16 year old to an old man. Thankfully we have mostly move pasted child marriage in our society, but this book serves as a reminder of the dangers.
posted by fern
DeleteFree Response: Passage
ReplyDeleteOn page 10 (onto page 11 as well), Janie is lying underneath a blooming pear tree, and her attraction to this phenomenon is explained in such a way that I think that it may act as a motif or symbol, signaling that a message of importance is told through it. So far, the book appears to focus on growing into a woman in respect to discovering one's place in the world and the way to behave in it. This vivid image of Janie under the tree is described in great detail: "It [the tree] had called her to come and gaze on a mystery. From barren brown stems to glistening leaf-buds; from the leaf-buds to snowy virginity of bloom. It stirred her tremendously." (p. 10) The effects of the enchantment of the tree are illustrated as well, as the tree connects her with nature, and in this, herself. "It connected itself with other vaguely felt matters that had struck her outside observation and buried themselves in her flesh. Now they emerged and quested about her consciousness." (p. 11) As mentioned above, I think that Janie's attraction to the blooming pear tree signifies her desire to live and discover herself; to truly become grown-up—but not out of losing a dream—out of aforementioned self-discovery.
As we near the middle of the book we see Janie's loss of innocence as she is put down by her husbands. She is forced to marry young to a man she doesn't love and when is name is first mentioned on page (12) the image of the pear tree "shrivel" in her mind. I am astounded at her resilience to being crushed by her husbands she stays strong against the odds.
DeleteThroughout history nature is used as a symbol of fertility and being a woman, i.e.; Mother Nature, which I think could also relate to the tree being a symbol of Janie's womanhood. The tree blossoming is her blossoming into a woman.
DeleteGreat points! These are good examples of the use of the pear tree and blossoms as a motif in this book.
DeleteOn page 55 we see how controlling Joe is about Janie's hair. After he sees it getting touched by another man he forces her to cover it up. He doesn't own her hair, but he still feels as thought he has the right to tell her how to look. I have a huge problem with boyfriends telling their girlfriends what to wear. It is deeply rooted in sexism and is still happening today. I hear lots of girls at school complaining about how their boyfriends told them to stop wearing crop tops, skirts, etc. It just goes to show you how much work we as a culture have left to do.
ReplyDeleteI agree, but I would also consider that this desire goes beyond Jody simply believing that he has the right to tell Janie how to wear her hair, and speaks to his need for control. Janie's hair represents her strength in its braids and even her sex appeal which he tries to hide as he gets older as well. He tries to restrain Janie and keep her to his principles, shaping her into a person she is not; subdued and submissive.
DeleteThis is about question 7 and it was written by Fern
DeleteEQ #4
ReplyDeleteThe differences between Joe and the men of the new town provide an interesting look at the social hierarchy imposed by both sides. On page 39, Hicks learned that Joe did indeed buy land for the town and was planning on bringing in a post office and store. As Hicks brings it up to another man, claiming that black men in a post office is insane, an implicit declaration of jealousy is made as well. The man's response shows some correlation between the lack of privilege that black people experience to the prejudice that they have against themselves or even against others within their race: "Us colored folks is too envious of one 'nother. Dat's how come us don't git no further than we do. Us talks about de white man keepin' us down! Shucks! He don't have tuh. Us keeps or own selves down." (Hurston 39). He expresses the opinion that the interracial prejudice holds back black people as a whole as much as (or more than) white people do. This suggests that the relationship between privilege (or lack thereof) and prejudice is close, and having little privilege can feed envy, which in turn causes prejudice against better-off black people.
Question 4 and 5:
ReplyDeleteJody is very privileged for a black man in the 1930s. He owns land, is mayor of his town and has a beautiful wife. We get a look into his privileged. his privilege as a man is what causes him to be so blind to Janie's ideas. Its not women putting women down its the men, because of their fear. On page 71 Jody explains why Janie nothing but a pretty face to do his biding. I don't think Jody really cares for the town he is just a power hungry guy with a lot of ambition. he talks advantage of the towns people too when he makes them dig a ditch so water won't flow onto his lawn. This privilege causes him to be prejudice against women and the other folks in town.
I agree; I would like to look more into the changing nature of Jody and Janie's relationship. At first, Janie is attracted to Jody's drive and ambition, thinking that his desire for power will help her achieve her desires. However, as their relationship develops, Jody proves to restrict her freedoms and force her to be a submissive wife. From not allowing her to make a speech at the opening of the store to making her cover her hair, he pushes her away from large parts of her sexual and personal identity. He places himself above Janie as he is a man, and in this time, they were seen as superior. His self-imposed privilege grows his prejudice against women as you said in your response.
DeleteI agree with this, but additionally I think the focus is on race as well as gender. When Janie is opposed to marrying someone she doesn't love, her grandmama tells her the struggles of raising her daughter as a black mother, especially in a time when slavery was only recently abolished. Her grandmama's view is that Janie needs someone taking care of her at all times, so that her beloved granddaughter does not see the negativity that she herself was forced to live with in her youth. This seems like an issue of the past, but can be seen today in more subtle ways, which may be the ever-present and immortal lesson of the story.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteThis was supposed to be a comment on Olivia's response to question 7
DeleteEQ #3
ReplyDeleteOn page 18, when Janie's grandmother is telling the story about how she escaped slavery, she attempted to overcome prejudice by escaping her slave master with her baby. The master of the house was going to beat her to death because she was pregnant with a baby. When she is questioned about her baby's race, she says she "ain't nothin' but uh nigger and uh slave." (page 17). This quote shows how prejudice has affected her because she truly believes she is worthless.
I agree with this, but I also think that this wasn't entirely what her grandmama meant when she said that. I think part of the reason she said that was to avoid her owner's wrath by showing her that she "knew her place." I mostly think that because of the fact that it made her owner angrier, which surprised her, and because she escaped that night, which she likely wouldn't have done if she truly believed herself worthless. I do think that a part of her believed what she was saying, though, and that the physical and psychological torment she was enduring had broken down her self esteem. I think that having a baby gave her worth and a drive to escape, as she had something she needed to take care of.
DeleteI definitely see what you are saying. I think that having a baby kind of gave her a purpose. When she had someone to take care of, she felt like she was worth something to someone else. When she was a slave she felt like she was a piece of property rather than a necessary helping hand.
DeleteIn response to Question 4, there are times when people are prejudiced because they are trying to be privileged. The example I'm thinking of is how Janie's grandmama grew up in slavery and struggled enormously raising her child, then saw her child be damaged by rape and abuse. In attempt to protect her granddaughter, she forces her to marry someone she doesn't love, which causes her great emotional suffering, so that she doesn't have to take care of herself independently. Instead of Janie suffering one prejudice, she experiences another that her grandmother fears less.
ReplyDeleteI agree that Janies mothers suffering at the hands of men has caused Janies grandmother to be prejudice against people like Johnny Taylor. In this section we see a correlation to question 5 by the fact that the grandmother becomes prejudice against unmarried men because of a single story that relationships before marriage doesn't end well.
DeleteEQ #7
ReplyDeleteThis story certainly reflects aspects of the current state of racism in our country. For example, when Hicks is complaining and saying that a colored person could never work at a post office; "He wasn't ready to think of colored people in post offices yet." (p. 39). This quote shows how we have made great strides since this time period. In the present black people can have any job that they wish. Of course, there is certainly still prejudice and privilege in the workplace but it has decreased. Another way that this book offsets the current gender roles is Jody's constant pestering of Janie and him not allowing her to speak at his mayoral inauguration or him not allowing her to wear her hair down. Janie's hair is a symbol of her strength and sexuality. I think that Jody is both scared of her strength and is scared of other men sexualizing her. Also, Jody could be wanting control and feels that by covering her hair, other men won't be able to sexualize her and she won't be able to attract other men besides himself.
I love your analysis of gender roles here. I do agree that Jody fears mens' attraction to Janie's hair and that his need for control has to do with her hair, but I think that this fear is rooted in controlling her character as well as the risk of other mens' desires. I think that the main issue with their relationship is that when Janie went into it, she expected Jody to give her the opportunities to find herself and her pleasure, but instead she found him pushing her to another dream—one of his own. He wished to have a wife by his side that fit a very narrow set of his ideals, and part of this was hiding the part of her that exhibits her strength and sexuality. In this, he controls who she is as opposed to who she might attract, as you suggest here. Great responses!
DeleteEQ #5
ReplyDeleteI think there is an interesting correlation between the grandmother's owner and the white people whose land Janie grew up on. When the grandmother was a slave, she was severely punished for misdemeanors or offenses and was treated as a piece of property. However, when they lived on the white people's land, Janie and her grandmother were treated with respect, love and care. The nice white woman gave Janie clothes and made sure that she looked presentable whereas the slave owner threatened to beat the grandmother to death for having a mixed child. This relates to question 5, because I wonder if the way the two white families were brought up affected their view of colored people. Although we don't know how they were raised, we can assume that the slave owner was raised in a family that "owned" slaves. We can infer from the other white family that they were raised with paid, black servants instead of slaves because although Janie is treated well, she isn't treated as an equal.
Time period is something to consider here. Janie's grandmother lived before slavery was abolished, during the Civil War, whereas Janie grew up when blacks were subjugated but not enslaved. It's true, though, that the later family was much more inclusive. Janie didn't even know she was black until she saw a photograph.
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ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteFree Response: the strange inherent protection of social hierarchy and the internalized racism behind it
ReplyDeleteWhen Mrs. Turner shows her hatred towards Tea Cake, or more specifically, his color, the reader begins to understand how the false idea of white superiority and the social systems that favor whites were held in place then and exist to a lesser degree today. Mrs. Turner's perspective shows the backwards root of her (unromantic) attraction to Janie and her love for her own white features:
Anyone who looked more white folkish than herself was better than she was in her
criteria, therefore it was right that they should be cruel to her at times, just as she
was cruel to those more negroid than herself in direct ratio to their negroness.
Like the pecking order in a chicken yard. Insensate cruelty to those you can whip,
and groveling submission to those you can't. (144)
Beyond the simple observation of her perspective, however, lies the sickening and frankly frightening side of human nature. The "insensate cruelty," which by definition is not only lacking in sympathy but also reason, describes this uncomfortable truth perfectly; the disturbing connotations of whipping and the emotionless cruelty capture the raw and blatant crudeness of racism accurately. Hurston goes on to describe the unsettling worship that Mrs. Turner takes part in. Her admiration for white people has moved past just high regard to a disturbing reverence, which also drives at the frightening parts of racism.
I think that one of the things I like so much about this book is the absence of reluctance to acknowledge the often overlooked and difficult truths about racism. Hurston covers the ugliness of the life, which, as shown through the whole story, is a necessity for self-discovery and experiencing the entirety of life.
When I published this, all of the formatting I did was deleted. The section following "her own white features:" should be indented, and there should be tabs at the beginning of the paragraphs.
DeleteMrs. Turner is a perfect example of internalized racism taken to a fetishistic extreme, as you said. She reminds me of Geraldine in The Bluest Eye.
DeleteAt a later point in the book, on page 106, the pear tree motif is brought up again in regards to the relationship between Tea Cake and Janie. "He could be a bee to a blossom - a pear tree blossom in the spring." Tea Cake is referred to here as the literal pear tree blossom which is seen as a symbol of fertility and youth. Tea Cake's youth is a point that is brought up repeatedly as a bad thing. I am wondering if there is a correlation between him being referred to as the "pear blossom" and his youth is countlessly pointed out, vs. Janie's older age which would result in her being less fertile...
ReplyDeletethis is just in reference to the wild card, and about the motif of the pear tree
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ReplyDeleteEQ #7 / privilege in general
ReplyDeleteThere is a point in the second-half of the book, on page 114, when Janie remarks on the progress that has been made since even her grandmother's time. Black people were never allowed to relax when they were enslaved, they couldn't do as they pleased because they belonged to "masters" but now that they are free, they should be able to relax as much as they want. I think Janie is trying to prove to Pheoby that she should be able to do as she pleases because it wasn't allowed before. This is interesting because relaxation was considered a privilege but now it is more normalized. The fact that Pheoby is uncomfortable with Janie's willingness to do as she pleases, shows that it was still culturally unacceptable for African-Americans to exercise these basic rights.
I agree. Janie is a pioneer in the fact that she allows herself to stray from the path that was set our for her. She refutes the single stories she has been told by her grandmother and others. Pheoby has a single story about black people. which cause here to be surprised. Later in the book we see the other women surprised that Janie works in the fields with them because they have a single story about rich women. Over and over again we see Janie refute single stories.
DeleteThese are great points, Fern! While Phoeby (who can represent the typical black woman) concentrates on the whims of society that she hears lounging on the porch and chatting, Janie is able to answer to only herself, which she expresses to Phoeby in the end of the book: "[You] got tuh find out about livin' fuh [your]sel[f]." (192) She strays from the path laid out for her by society in order to pursue her own goals as she pleased.
DeleteYou guys both had such great responses! I definitely agree with both of you... Janie was a prime example of a black woman of that time period with both hands on the wheel, however trying to steer off the beaten path. She wasn't tied to down to any stereotypes of who or what she "needs" to be. I think we see this when she takes notice of Jody's controlling nature during the mayoral ceremony when he doesn't allow her to speak. She later brings it up and is questioning just how fair that is.
DeleteEQ #4
ReplyDeleteThere are numerous example of an abuse of power by the people with more money or people who are thought to be "better" than others. In the beginning of the book we see Jody using his Mayoral status to seem better than others and pressuring Janie to act accordingly, but Janie is more accepting of the idea of equality between all people. On page 124, Tea Cake explicitly calls out Janie for her prejudice that was actually prompted by Jody: "You ain't usetuh folks lak dat and ah wuz skeered you might git all mad and quit me for takin' you 'mongst 'em." Tea Cake thought that Janie had always lived a privileged life, based on how she was living in Eatonville, when her old behavior was taught to her by Jody. Now that Jody is gone, I think that Janie will retreat back to her old roots of being friendly with people like her grandmother, people who worked hard for what they got.
Tea Cake certainly mistakes Janie's lifestyle with Jody as something she was seeking out, when in reality, Janie is seeking self-discovery and a full life, something that Tea Cake is so apt in providing. I think that this misunderstanding on Tea Cake's part was the main reason that Janie's husband's escapade hurt her so much. Instead of inquiring about the money, she was concerned about the experiences she missed out on.
DeleteIn respect to the essential question, I think that you prove here that being privileged provides the perfect opportunity to grow prejudices against those below you, but Janie stands out as an exception to this claim. Her transition from modest childhood to surprising worldliness allows her to keep her eyes on her goal—expanding her horizons—as opposed to getting lost in the storm of prejudice.
Janie's story is an outlier in the fact that she gained so much status by marrying up. This allows Janie unlike other people to focus on almost solely her happiness. In this raw journey we see her struggle to overcome social norms and abusive husbands, but never poverty like so many others in the story. The fact that she is privileged in this way it allows her to rise above the prejudice.
DeleteEQ #4
ReplyDeleteMrs. Turner is the perfect example of someone who is privileged using her power to discriminate. In chapter 16 we see her putting Tea Cake down and calling him nasty things behind his back to his wife. She is afraid of seeming too black and tries to make friends with Janie because she feels below her there is a self-imposed “pecking order”(142) that causes Mrs. Turner to be so nasty to the people she feels above, and to worship those above her.
EQ #7
ReplyDeleteThe book reflects some of the same attitudes about gender that exist today. When Janie goes to work, everyone is surprised to see her deign to their level: "There was a suppressed murmur when she picked up a basket and went to work. She was already getting to be a special case on the muck. It was generally assumed that she thought herself too good to work like the rest of the women and that Tea Cake "pomped her up tuh dat."" (133) This reflects both the envious and hostile feelings that women feel towards each other then and now, and also the reasoning that women have to have the influence of men to be enviable. Their thoughts hold that without Tea Cake, Janie might not have been "pomped up," and therefore one of them, free of any envy. I think that the same implicit preference for men exists today.
Wild Card:
ReplyDeleteI really wanted to talk about Tea Cake's night with the two hundred dollars. I was so angry at tea cake for putting Janie through all that worry; not to mention the fact that it was not just irresponsible spending, but also it was her money! I am intrigued at why this section of the book was written. I think it was to show us the Tea cake was very human, not just some magical man that swept Janie off her feet. I think this section was added to not only show us the greedy side of Tea cake but also the human side, so that we as readers can connect to him better. What do you'll think?
I was definitely angry with Tea Cake when he first left, but I don't think that his strange use of the money was purely irresponsible or written simply for a display of his faults, but rather his adventurous and social nature. When Tea Cake begins to explain himself on page 122, we learn that "[w]hen he found out how much it was, he was excited and felt like letting folks know who he was. . . He never had had his hand on so much money before in his life, so he made up his mind to see how it felt to be a millionaire." While it was Janie's money and a considerable sum, especially in those times, his spending did not harm Janie except allow her fear and doubt to creep in for a day. In some ways, I think that this experience helped Janie grow and understand herself further. It also re-establishes Tea Cake as quite the polar opposite of Jody, as the attraction of money was not power but rather building experience and living life. We also learn through this event that Tea Cake still fears that he is bringing Janie down in social status, and that she will resent him for it. After telling Janie about these worries, he discovers that she seeks enrichment and adventure in life, just as he does. In this way, their relationship was ideal for Janie as their goals were similar; this made it so her life with Tea Cake filled out much of the figurative net that she pulls up around her in the last pages of the book.
DeleteWhen I read that part I noticed the difference between this time period and our current society as well. During multiple parts of the book we see the reoccurring theme that the woman should be submissive of her husband. Could this play back to Jody's need to feel more powerful than the other men of Eatonville? I think it shows how power is a symptom of human nature. Those who recognize that they have power over certain people seem to take advantage of this power.
ReplyDelete